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| Author: | JeffD [ Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | New guy with a couple questions |
Hi all, I'm in the process of building my first acoustic guitar, something I've wanted to do for about 20 years now. I'm following, (mostly), the plans from "guitar making" by W. Cumpiano with a few exceptions. I'm actually trying to build this guitar without investing much cash into it since I'm not sure how well it will come out anyway. If I'm lucky it will be playable!?! So it's going to be an all mahogany guitar except for the fingerboard which will be Bethabara (sp?) which is a wood in the Ipe family. I'm using these woods simply because I happen to have them on hand, (I'm a cabinetmaker by trade), and think they will work well for my needs. Anyway I've got my sound board, back and sides thicknessed, have the neck blank w/ heel glued up and the fretboard marked out ready for sawing fret slots. I bent up and threaded the truss rod today and will install into the neck later this week. So I'm at the point where I need to find the answer to a couple questions. 1st…do I try using the hot pipe method for bending my sides, or should I build one of the side bending jigs I see on Youtube? What are the pros and cons to each method? Alternatively has anyone tried using a form and vacuum bag to bend the sides? 2nd….what do you guys recommend for tuners? I see stuff at all different price ranges and don't really need the best on the market, but also don't want to get anything too cheap. So what's the Ford/Chevy of guitar tuners? Also I've looked at a couple websites an found some specs, but can't find any information on how much room for adjustment they have for varying head stock thicknesses? The plans I'm following call for a 9/16" thick headstock which is about where I'll be, but it would be comforting to know how much wiggle room there is! anyway I'm sure I'll have about a thousand more very basic beginner questions while undertaking this project, though for now I'm going to be reading through old posts to see what I can learn. thanks, JeffD |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
If you only plan on doing a one off, a hot pipe is likely more economical. I like Grover and Gotoh tuners, both should fit a 9/16 headstock. But really, there's a ton of good stuff for 50$ or less. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
I use a hot pipe myself. I think learning to use it is an essential skill. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
There is not a whole lot of wiggle room for head stock thickness. You can get away with going a little thinner then 9/16th but if you make it too thick then you won't have much string post showing. Bending machines are good when you are set on building several guitars of the same model. A hot pipe will be more versatile and you can bend any shape you want. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Bending pipes are an acquired skill. The first few attempts may not go so well. And the mahogany you are using is not an easy wood to bend. But if you are trying to keep the cost down the pipe would be the way to go. Just have your sides thinned to somewhere around 0.070" to 0.060" to make bending easier and use a steel backer strip to prevent breakage. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
I did my first on a pipe and still do even though I also have a Fox-type bender that I built. Plan on breaking some sides at first as you figure out how to make it work. |
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| Author: | George L [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
I'd stick with bending over a hot pipe. Since you have wood available, you might want to make a practice set of sides and work those first. This would be prudent no matter what method you choose for bending. I agree with the suggestions of Grover or Gotoh. Both offer good quality tuning machines at a moderate price. |
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| Author: | Dolds [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
I have just built my first guitar and found bending on a form with a blanket real easy |
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| Author: | Quine [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
A hot pipe is much cheaper and less work than building a bending machine. Hot pipe bending is much easier than it looks. Bending forms are great if you plan to make many guitars of the same body shape. But I'm a one-off builder usually so I stick with the pipe. I like Grover or Gotoh tuners for price and quality. I'm sure there are nicer machines but I just can't spend the big bucks on tuners |
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| Author: | JeffD [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Thanks for the responses guys! I don't think this will be the only guitar I build, but I think I'll stick with the hot pipe method for the time being. And yeah I have plenty of wood for testing on! I've looked at the Gotoh tuners, any particular models that are favorites? Or should any of them be fine? JeffD |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Pretty much any tuner over 20$ will be fine. If you want cheap but good, the d'addario solutions tuners are great. |
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| Author: | quentinjazz [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Hi, I think too that you should learn bending on a hot pipe, that's a nice feeling to shape wood with your hands, without removing any material, just giving it a new shape. I made 6 guitars with a bending iron, and now I have switched to a homemade bender with a silicon blanket and heat regulator. I'm very happy of this new bending system but I don't regret at all having spent time to bend manually on a few guitars. Remember: on a bending iron you can make any shape you want. With a bending machine you need to build a new bending template for each guitar shape. For the tuners, I recommend the grover statites which are cheap but nice. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Paul Dolden wrote; "I have just built my first guitar and found bending on a form with a blanket real easy" I would have to agree with him. Which is not to say that pipe bending is not a good skill to have, but I've found bending on a block form with a heating blanket to be so much easier. You don't need to build a "bending machine". A simple block form , a heat blanket , some clamps and a few cauls is all you need. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Bending on a pipe is a lot of fun. You can really feel the wood giving way to what you want it to do. I would love a bending jig, but don't build enough gits to loose real estate in the shop with another jig. I used to use Schallers, and like them, but now my tuner of choice is the Gotoh 510's. I really like the higher gear ratio, as a player. I've also used cheapo tuners and never had any problems, so. |
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| Author: | Nils [ Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Pipe bending is what I would recommend. On a different note, I see you're in Concord. I'm in Charlestown. Its a little bit of a haul but feel free to swing by sometime for some bending tips, etc....nilsjohnson328@gmail.com, www.nilsguitarsandmandolins.com |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Very briefly, another experience. First guitar was a kit so no bending was involved. For my second I put together a pipe bender using a propane torch - practiced on scrape, guitar came out fine. When it became obvious that there was going to be a third and maybe more (I'm at 17 now) I bought a blanket and put together a Fox style bender (you can buy the bender or build your own). I bend perfect sides now every time, including koa, Mad and Brazilian rosewood and all my wood binding. I still use the hot pipe for one off things like binding for a solid body or headstock. My little trick is that when I make the outside mold for a new guitar I screw four pieces of 3/4 MDF together and cut them out on the band saw. The outside pieces become the mold, the innies become the bending jig. I bend the sides and binding all at the same time, then put the bender away. The sides go into the mold, the bindings get taped to the jig and put away until I need them. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
jfmckenna wrote: There is not a whole lot of wiggle room for head stock thickness. You can get away with going a little thinner then 9/16th but if you make it too thick then you won't have much string post showing. Bending machines are good when you are set on building several guitars of the same model. A hot pipe will be more versatile and you can bend any shape you want. Gotoh makes adjustable posts (height). Of course, you pay more for these. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
I will pass along what John Hall said to me. If you have wood skills, and access to some tools (now that itself is a Pandora's Box), then fit and finish are going to be the only real issues. If you are only going to build one guitar, my advice (was I asked?) is to buy a pre-bent, highly serviced kit. They are not that expensive. You will spend a lot of time putting it together (there are sub-forums here on this topic). You won't feel cheated in the experience. And you won't have to learn bending. I'll bet John Hall (Blues Creek Guitars) can set you up. He will put EVERYTHING you need in one box except the glue and finish. Might even throw in a Blues Creek hat too! |
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| Author: | JeffD [ Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Thanks again guys, great info as well as encouragement! I'm building one guitar…..for now:) I do have 3 sets of sides, backs and necks already made up soooooo it won't be alone for too long I hope. But I'll need to pick up some tops unless I want mahogany on all, and I want to go through the first to find all, (or most) of the mistakes before getting too far ahead of myself. So that rules out buying kits, I'm fairly good at cobbling stuff together and have spent a good chunk of my life working with wood including curved work, but admittedly I know next to nothing about building guitars. I'm going to play with the hot pipe for this guitars sides and see how it goes. I don't want to make a bunch of the same sized guitars anyway so it will likely be my best bet. JeffD |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Well, ok then! Practice bending on scraps first. Even if ur sides are inexpensive, they are ur sides. Maybe u can get someone to properly thickness some domestic wood to 0.1" to work on ur technique. Cheap insurance. |
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| Author: | JeffD [ Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Not so much that they're inexpensive as that they've been bought and paid for long ago:) No worries on thicknessing either, I'm running them through a wide belt to get to thickness….one of the benefits of owning your own cabinet shop! Shooting for a bit thinner though….roughly .080 to hopefully make things go a little smoother! And I've got plenty of domestic hardwood in my rack, just not much that's quarter sawn. Walnut, maple, cherry, beech, mahogany, cedars….all sorts of wood leftovers from various projects. Now I've just got to find myself a suitable pipe for the task. Jeff |
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| Author: | mayor [ Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
My suggestion is to be mindful of how wet you get the mahogany sides before you bend them. If you soak them through, they are more likely to buckle and not bend smoothly. The bending pipe has to be hot enough to cause water drops to bounce off it, but do not let it get so hot that the wood will scorch. My first guitar was done all with a propane-heated bending pipe. I broke a few pieces before finally getting an acceptable result. The waist will be the hardest bend to get right. The set of guitars I am working on now I built a fox-type bender (with heating blanket). It is simpler and more uniform from piece to piece, but then there is the upfront investment of a blanket, controller, thermometer, screw, springs, wood for the forms, etc. I did still use the pipe for prebending the un-kerfed linings (these ones are classicals) and certain pieces for the rosette. Since you still need heat to bend the sides and a form to shape them, a vacuum press does not seem to apply here (and you are not laminating pieces) because the Fox bender does all the things you need. Being that you have a cabinet shop, having the drum sander will really help. To build my bending pipe, I sourced 3" galvanized fence post, created 4 tabs on one end so screws could attach it to the wooden cradle that holds the propane tank. Between the pipe and wood I placed that black fireproof cloth that plumbers use. It keeps the cradle from going up in flames. Make sure you are not in too small of a space if you are running the propane flame for a long time. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Bending on a pipe takes a little practice to get the feel (what doesn't?) Getting the side thinned to about .075" is most important advice (after practicing) Its the ribbon figure Mahogany that can be the real PITA No matter use water sparingly (sprittz bottle) and don't even try it without a backing slat applying even pressure. Here's our (KMG) pipe bender http://www.acousticguitarconstructionfo ... ?f=8&t=794 Just do it! |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
Mike O'Melia wrote: jfmckenna wrote: There is not a whole lot of wiggle room for head stock thickness. You can get away with going a little thinner then 9/16th but if you make it too thick then you won't have much string post showing. Bending machines are good when you are set on building several guitars of the same model. A hot pipe will be more versatile and you can bend any shape you want. Gotoh makes adjustable posts (height). Of course, you pay more for these. Oh ok, interesting. I've never come across those before. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New guy with a couple questions |
I got my pipe from either stew mac or LMI. Used some u bolts to clamp it to a board, then, since I already had them, I put my 500 watt electric soldering iron inside, and plug that into my variac, to control the heat. I like it! |
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